Podcast
Michele’s Story: Resilience & Inclusion
Episode Description
In this episode of Breaking Ground: Women in AEC Leadership, host Reanna Dempsey sits down with Michele Zorzi, Senior Director of Marketing and Principal at Colliers Engineering & Design. Michele shares her powerful journey of resilience and inclusion—opening up about her experience as a cancer survivor and how vulnerability, empathy, and balance have shaped her leadership approach.
Through authenticity and transparency, Michele has inspired growth not only in her firm—from $30M to over $500M in revenue—but also within her team and community. She discusses leading with heart, founding her firm’s first Women’s ERG, and why being true to yourself is the foundation of personal and organizational success.
You don’t want to miss Michele’s inspiring story of courage, leadership, and inclusion in action.
Have questions or want to get in touch? Email us at podcasts@unanet.com
0:08
Speaker 1Welcome to Breaking Ground, the Women in AEC leadership podcast.
This is the show that lifts voices, journeys and insights of women shaping the future of architecture, engineering and construction.
And it's brought to you by Unanet.
If you're in the architecture, engineering, or construction space, you know how critical it is to keep your projects on time, your teams aligned, your pipeline growing, and your finances in check.
0:32
And that's where Uninet comes in with project based ERP solutions, CRM solutions, and an AI growth suite built specifically for AEC firms.
I'm your host, Rihanna Dempsey.
In each episode, we will connect with professionals across the AEC industry to share real stories and hard earned wisdom.
0:50
At our core, we believe that a strong, diverse workforce drives innovation and success and that women are essential to building the future of AEC.
This is more than a conversation, it's a community focused on growth and lasting impact.
Let's get started.
Today we are speaking to Michelle Zorzi.
1:07
How are you, Michelle?
1:09
Speaker 2Great.
Happy to be here.
Thank you for having me.
1:12
Speaker 1I'm really excited to unpack this conversation.
I think we're going to go all over the place today, but before we jump in, I just want to give a little bit of a overview on you and then you can fill in any of the blanks.
But Michelle is an award-winning marketing and business executive with expertise and strategy, branding and M&A integrations.
1:33
And today you are Senior Director of Marketing and a Principal at Colliers Engineering and Design, right?
That's all that, right?
1:41
Speaker 2You have.
1:42
Speaker 1A team of more than 50 people and you've seen the firm drive growth from 30 million to now over 500 million in revenue.
That is quite a run.
1:52
Speaker 2Yes, we have been running high speed.
1:56
Speaker 1And how long have you been with Colliers?
1:59
Speaker 2I've been here for 17 1/2 years.
2:02
Speaker 1That's the one thing about this in all of our architecture, engineering, construction, the retention people tend to see places and you're you don't see that in all the other industries and I love that.
2:15
Speaker 2Yeah, no, that is very true.
A lot of my staff have been here for quite some time.
It's it's really nice.
They've become family.
2:22
Speaker 1That is awesome.
And you are in New York, correct?
2:26
Speaker 2I'm in New Jersey.
2:27
Speaker 1Oh, you're in New Jersey?
2:28
Speaker 2I am a New Yorker.
I am from New York.
Yes, I'm a native New Yorker, but our headquarters is in hometown New Jersey.
2:36
Speaker 1Nice.
OK, great.
Well, I'm very excited.
I know some of the topics that you are kind of known for within Colliers in particular is really fostering collaboration, inclusion, integrity, and you are a proud mom and a recognized thought leader and speaker as well.
2:54
So I'm sure we're going to get into all of those things along the way.
But before we get into like the content content, we try to start with something fun.
So just a very, very easy icebreaker.
Would you share a topic that you recently discussed either at the dinner table or at the conference room table?
3:15
Speaker 2Oh wow.
OK, dinner table.
Dinner table always seems to be the logistics of my calendar, which is insane and trying not to double book things.
We, I do tend to sit at the dinner table for a really long time and talk.
3:33
So there's lots of different topics going on, but typically it's who's going where and, and, and it's only two of us now at this point where it used to be, you know, seven of us around the table, but now it's two and we still seem to have as many logistics going on.
So that does happen often.
3:50
That's fun though.
All good things.
Thank God that we have a lot of adulting children and all the things that we have to do for them and where they're going and it's fun.
So it's all good busyness, which is nice.
Not nothing.
Nothing that's stressful.
4:05
Speaker 1Well, that is good and it sounds very similar to my dinner table.
Same same concept, just who's going to take people places and that it is takes up a lot of time.
So I feel you on that.
So why don't we start a couple topics that I know we're going to get into, but maybe just a highlight.
4:23
I mean, 17 years at Colliers.
It would be very interesting to hear kind of how did you get there and just sort of what that journey has been like.
And I know it's hard to cram in 17 years into a, you know, a few minutes, but yeah.
4:37
Speaker 2Yeah, Yeah, we can.
We can definitely try.
So I have always been in the AEC space in my career.
So it wasn't a dream.
Like I wasn't like, oh, I'm going to work at the engineers.
And in fact, I started an art school.
4:52
And so when I was looking for a true full time role as my children were getting older, I started to just pound the pavement and ended up in an engineering company that has since closed.
And honestly, I was in shock.
5:09
I was like, I'm going to work for engineers.
This doesn't feel like me.
And I learned a lot.
And it was, it was kind of a fun journey.
And after about 7 years of my first firm, I found myself interviewing here and we were called major consulting at the time.
5:25
And when I came into this role, I had probably two or three other people in the department, but the department was definitely in flux.
And so it was really starting from Ground Zero.
You know, there was actually at the firm, there really wasn't a marketer.
5:45
There were a lot of people that were coming in and acting as marketers in this little marketing team, but it wasn't even run by a marketer.
So there was tons of opportunity.
And I am really proud and happy to say that this firm was one of those firms that if you could do the work and you did it, you paved your own way.
6:04
And it kind of has always been that way, which I think is really excellent because it's all about the opportunities you're given, right?
And when you come into a room like, oh, we need to fix that.
And if you can fix it, go, go fix it.
And then, you know, all right, you get the title and you continue to move on with your career.
6:22
So it was coming in to this firm, I remember telling my hiring manager at the time, I'll stay here as long as my job keeps changing and growing and I don't.
And I'm not doing the same thing over and over because I'll get bored really easy.
6:39
And if we can keep that going, I'll stay.
And clearly they did, because here I am 17 years later and the firm is completely different.
6:47
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, I love it.
Yeah, I'm, I'm in the same boat.
I definitely would get bored with the same day-to-day.
So that's amazing that they've, you know, you've been able to grow with the firm.
And one of the things that I think our listeners would be really interested in hearing about, you know, we, we, we have some stats that we've shared on previous episodes about just there's a ton of, you know, women coming into engineering and architecture and even construction.
7:18
We're seeing greater covers, but still there's only 8% roughly of engineering executive roles that are held by women in AEC.
So it's still, you know, that kind of, we haven't really seen that, that flip where everyone's coming in and then they're starting to build up and, and take on some of those, you know, bigger leadership roles.
7:38
And so one of the things that you all set up and you actually were the 1 and you had a partner in crime, I think, but you guys actually founded an employee resource group or ERG.
And I think you and I were talking and I said you did it before it was cool.
Like our G's are a thing now and a lot of companies have them.
7:56
But back in 2017 when you started, you know, thinking about this, it wasn't very common.
So I would love to hear and especially for our listeners, like what how did you go about?
Like what problem were you trying to solve or what, what did you want to accomplish?
And how did you go about kind of setting up this type of group within Colliers?
8:17
Speaker 2Yeah, sure.
I'd love to talk about that.
It was fun.
It was a fun thing to do.
And the truth is I had gotten to a good place in my career where, like I said, I like change and I like to keep evolving.
And I was, I felt pretty satisfied with my life in general.
8:34
I looked around, I was like, OK, my family life is good, my work life is good.
My career is going in a good direction.
I'm happy with what I'm doing.
But I'm missing something.
I'm not giving back in a way that feels good to me.
And so I was kind of looking around to figure out how I could do that.
And I did probably spend well, I spent a lot of hours at work.
8:52
So I was like, well, be easy if I could because I couldn't find the time to dedicate outside of work.
So I'm like, well, if I built it in work, then I would be able to give back and feel good about closing that hole that that gap that I found and also give something back to my firm and then try to elevate the women in the firm to give them opportunities and then really to keep them.
9:17
So a lot of what you just said is very true in terms of having a wider pool to hire from, right?
And AEC in general is has a shrinking staffing pool.
9:32
As ever, most people in AEC know because it's a different thing to fill and focusing on females who are already not entering this space at the rate that the males were, we thought that could be a good place to start.
Let's try to put something out there to bring in more talent.
9:51
And I teamed up with my HR, my partner in crime, my HR at the time, she was the what her title was, but it's now Chief People Officer Allison Colantoni.
And we teamed up and said, let's just do this.
This will be great for, for the firm.
10:07
It'll be great for us and, and it'll be exciting thing to do.
And we were much smaller than and, and with smaller firms, sometimes you, you have your role, but you may not have an opportunity to take a leadership over a project in your specific role.
10:24
And we wanted to give opportunities for anyone that to be clear, while it was a resource group for women, it was because we spoke of and dealt with women specific topics.
However, it was for everyone in the firm and that was a concept that was not easy to communicate, no matter how many times we said this is for everyone to join.
10:51
Obviously, we had a lot less men in the room, but we did have them and, and we made a point to congratulate the ones that showed up because, and even ask them why they were here.
And a lot of them were saying that they wanted to learn more how they can support their women coworkers and sometimes even their daughters in their life.
11:09
How can I help her to be the best that she can be?
So which was awesome.
But if anyone is in those, you know, in charge of any kind of a women's organization, communicating that you're open to everyone is, is critically important.
We felt.
11:24
Yeah.
But it, it was a, it was a really in the beginning when we were smaller, it was to, to open up opportunities for the women of the firm to be seen and to take a leadership role and to have some impact in addition to their day-to-day work.
11:42
And we needed it because the firm was growing and we needed people to do different initiatives.
So it was a perfect win, win.
11:48
Speaker 1Yeah, that I love that and I love that you called out.
It is not you don't exclude people.
It is, it's a it's a problem.
Again, if we believe that like having a lot of different types of people represented in leadership is important, than, you know, it's kind of all of our collective initiative, not just, you know, and then that it's that it's kind of created for well, what kind of activities did you guys?
12:12
I mean, like, what are some of the things like if I'm sitting here listening and I'm thinking, wow, I would love to do something like that at my firm, You know, what are some of the events and and activities that you all do?
12:25
Speaker 2So in the beginning, like I said, we were smaller, smaller firm, I don't know, maybe we were 500 or 500 people at that time, maybe a little bit more.
And like I said, we were looking to run different types of initiatives because that's what the firm needed.
12:41
As as my organization evolved, we have changed a little bit.
But back then we ran different things like book club.
We started a book club where the topics were all related to women empowerment and, and education and, and leadership skills.
13:00
We had panel discussions.
That was one of the first, one of the first initiatives we did was a panel discussion.
And it was at the time the first panel discussion ever held at the company.
So that was that was awesome.
I love, I think I like doing things that have never been done before in the space because it just is interesting and more fun to and more challenging.
13:20
And we ran most of the people were all internal people would bring people from different locations, men and women, different age groups, different, you know, all different demographics to have a discussion around work life balance.
I think that was the first one.
13:35
We've also done negotiating skills.
We'll do speaking engagements will bring people in to have a conversation around around performance time.
We'll focus on leadership, we'll focus on self advocacy, we'll focus on negotiation skills.
13:53
And these are all skills that are great for everybody, right?
So that's why I say it's, it's really maybe they're topics that are, I don't want to say more important, but skill set that women maybe don't traditionally have that confidence, that ability to walk into a room and know that you belong there and it's OK and you can speak for what you want instead of waiting for someone to give it to you, you need to ask for it.
14:19
So a lot of our initiatives revolved around that.
We also had external, it was internal and external.
So we did a lot of community service.
We were very careful to make sure that we focused on professional development.
14:38
Yeah.
And and not so there were some things that we wouldn't do, like, you know, if it was something that had to do with like health and Wellness, we kind of left that aside like a run for heart health.
We kind of left that aside.
But we would work with, let's say different organizations to help with resume building or anything that revolves around professional development.
15:02
And sometimes that was fundraisers to help.
Maybe Dress for Success was one of them.
I think that.
15:09
Speaker 1One just popped in my head, yeah.
15:11
Speaker 2We had a.
15:11
Speaker 1Really good, great organization, yeah.
15:14
Speaker 2And we did a lot of work with them.
So we were giving back to our communities, but in a way that supported women's development, right, professional development any way we could.
So there are definitely a great organization to to work with.
15:27
Speaker 1Yeah.
Well, and I know I feel like there's a lot we could continue to unpack with the the ERG, but if they're again, if we have someone and you mentioned like you used to be smaller and now you've grown.
15:42
So you kind of have seen it run the gamut.
Like what are any, any bits of advice for people that are looking to set up their own?
Like how would they get started?
Or you know any, any advice?
15:53
Speaker 2So for us, I think first and foremost like understand your firm and the needs of your firm, right?
So depending on the size, because we ultimately more Ergs showed up at our firm and they all started doing different things.
And there were so many initiatives that it was like, you know what, we don't need to build initiatives anymore.
16:11
We have enough initiatives.
We need to do something else now.
So we had to evolve the organization to fit the needs of the growing firm.
The firm was expanding across the country.
It the, the members, so it is a member like you kind of sign up for it.
16:28
So I'm not blasting emails out to the entire firm.
I have a membership list.
We introduce it as as a new hire.
When the new hire comes in, we introduce the organization.
We say, you know, you sign up and once you sign up, then you have access to everything that we have to offer, which could be webinars or invitations to different podcasts that we know are have important topics.
16:49
So we really try to give a lot of resources and I think that's important because that doesn't take as much time you can have like you know, everyone has a different hub, but you know, wherever your employees gather for information, you can have a space there and you can list your members and you can have resources and things like that.
17:07
But really understanding what your firm needs.
Some examples.
As we evolved, we stopped asking them.
They had enough on their plate so we didn't need people to, hey, you don't have to start an initiative, but come we meet quarterly and at every, every quarterly meeting, we will have either a guest speaker or a topic.
17:29
Sometimes they're internal guest speakers, like we may have someone from HR come in and talk about performance evaluations and how you can, you know, be do the best for yourself and advocate for yourself.
Sometimes we'll have external people come in, someone who's written a book and they want to talk about it in terms of leadership.
17:50
So understanding that you have to ship depending on what your company needs.
And that's what we were able to do.
We also had a book club which was incredibly successful that started from day one and has been going since the initial.
18:05
And we just keep growing in this multiple people in that group.
And now we, we're evolving that to an education.
I don't know what you would call it, but it's like a book club, except you're taking a class together and then coming to discussing it.
18:22
So it's really, that's kind of fun because I know everyone, all of our organizations offer extended learning, but never, no one ever has the time.
They want that class, but we never get to do it right.
So this kind of encourages everyone to do it together.
And it's awesome because, you know, once a month they do a class and then they all come together and they and they need to discuss it.
18:44
And then in the quarterly meeting, someone will come up and give a little, you know, 5 minute intro to what the course was, what people gained from it, what some of the insights were in the hopes that that would encourage more people to take that class.
So, yeah, it's, it's fun.
19:00
It is really.
And that was someone in, you know, someone in the meeting that just said, hey, I want to start a learning club.
And have at it.
Great.
You know it.
To me, it didn't matter.
Doesn't matter who you are, if you're the receptionist or you're the CEO, if you you want to do something and contribute and you're going to take it and run with it, you, you go.
19:20
Speaker 1For it that is.
Well that is great advice.
Hopefully you know people can, we'll see Ergs popping up all over the AEC industry after they they've heard how you guys set yours up.
So thanks for sharing that.
19:33
Speaker 2Yeah, I'd love, love to encourage that.
I think it's it's, it's good because it also gives, it gives the employees in the firm a place to like really connect.
And and since hiring is a challenge turnover, we don't want to have happen, right.
So if if people feel connected to their firm in a way that that feels good, you know they'll stay.
19:56
Speaker 1And we, we spend more time at work than we do with our families.
So it's, yeah, it is.
It is definitely important.
20:01
Speaker 2For me, it's also that, like I said, that part of my life where I wasn't giving back.
And when I come out of these quarterly meetings and even when my schedule's really, really busy and I try, I'm like, all right, I got to get into the meeting and, and I leave that meeting at, it's like I feel refreshed.
20:17
I feel like, oh, that's why I started this.
That felt really good.
And all these people in that space, you know, having this great conversation inspires you to kind of, OK, I can, I can keep going, keep going.
20:27
Speaker 1Yes, I love that.
Well, and that kind of shifts over into a topic that I think, you know, we hear a lot about in, in business, but like really, and especially I feel like since COVID resilience, this whole idea of like overcoming challenges and how do I, you know, when especially, you know, at the intersection of health and work, like how do we think about that?
20:53
And, and you and I, I mean, some, I feel like some people I'm not going to have met before the podcast, but you and I have had a chance to, to talk a little bit about how this has impacted, you know, your work life.
And I think, you know, it would be interesting to hear, you know, how do you how do you think about that whole intersection?
21:13
Speaker 2Yeah, it's a great question.
And, and I do think it's a real relevant question right now because I feel like people push themselves and we work with, you know, we have goals in mind and we want to continue and we want to keep growing.
But we do have to consider some trade-offs and understand who we are and what we're capable of.
21:34
And how do you work through times in your life where there's challenges and they, they could be health challenges, they could be personal challenges, they could be family challenges, right, Even just aging parents or, you know, kids in trouble or, you know, any, any of those things.
21:51
And then you have to come to work and, and, you know, put the smile on, keep going through.
But you do have all these things happening.
And I think that one, being aware of what you're doing and how you're doing it and, and, and being mindful of your own body and how it's feeling is, is critically important for I have had my, my share of challenges, both personally and, and also for family life, but also for health.
22:22
And I am a cancer survivor, and I was.
22:26
Speaker 1Glad for that, by the way.
Yes.
22:28
Speaker 2Yes, it's good to be a survivor.
Yes, it is.
And so when I was first diagnosed, I was in the middle of my career and I was just like, oh, I'm not going to tell anybody about this.
Like, I'll be good.
I'll just fight it and no one will have to know.
And I quickly realized that that's probably one of the most ridiculous things I've ever thought in my life.
22:47
But I'm like, and on top of it, why?
Like I just kept going back to, why do I feel the need that I cannot show up authentically to work And that the people at my company, who I, I love this company and I'm here because the people were so good and I felt welcoming.
23:05
Why do I not give them that credit that I can share something like this with them and that they would be OK with it and they would be supportive.
So I did give them that chance and they were, which was amazing.
My CEO at the time was like, Oh, you take, take my limo and I will to make sure you get to every single treatment you have to go to.
23:26
And I was just like, that's very sweet, but I, I don't need that.
But thank you, you know, and I was like, you know, whatever you need, I'll give it to you.
So being in a place that you hopefully most people are at those types of firms.
And if you're not, you should think about that because it is important to be in a company that recognizes you're human and and that you can still deliver value even when you have challenges and understanding and recognizing when you need to take a break to be able to say, OK, and having teams that can support that as well.
23:58
So I, like I said, I quickly learned that that isn't the way to go.
And in addition to that, your story can save someone else.
It really, mine was one of those things that a fluke thing happened that helped me understand and find out that I had this.
24:17
So it was not a health issue.
It wasn't I wasn't something wasn't something I would be able to see or know about.
And other people could be in the same situation.
So it is sometimes you talk about something and it triggers someone else and you could be saving someone's life.
24:33
So from that perspective, trying to keep things in and hiding and I, I don't believe is the way to go.
And, and you can still work through these things.
You just have to do it in a way that you're not harming yourself and that you're helping, you know, others around you and then you're letting other people help you because that's the other thing that's hard for us as leaders.
24:53
It's like, Oh no, you don't need to help me and I don't need you to cook me meals and I don't need you to do all this.
And, you know, being vulnerable like that isn't always easy, but I think it does make us human.
And I think it's powerful to allow yourself to be like that.
25:08
And you can, you can really connect with people on a much deeper level if you're really showing up as your full self.
25:15
Speaker 1Taking help I think is and I would.
I have no data to back this up.
Don't Fact Check me, but would take a wild guess that moms are even worse about this because, and I think that is also it's like you go to work and you're trying to push through at work.
25:34
And then if you do have children at home, like your job doesn't end.
You don't get to like kick up your feet after, you know, 6:00 and all of a sudden it's like it actually sometimes gets worse and you have more physical, you're driving.
You're, I mean, it's, it can be exhausting.
25:51
And I think as women, I, and again, I have no data, but I know a lot.
I don't want to say that I don't think men do this, but I know a lot of women who take it all on.
And like you said, you just try to compartmentalize and you're like, I'm just not going to talk about it.
I'm going to pretend it's not there and I'm just going to power through it.
26:08
It's like, why do we do that to ourselves?
I don't know.
Yeah.
So I love that you have shared that because like you said, I think other people and like you mentioned, it's not just a really serious health thing.
It could be, it could be your mental health, it could be anything that you, you know, just have to deal with and and how do you allow yourself those breaks?
26:27
And like you said, listening.
I'm a big intuition, I think is we don't listen to ourselves enough.
And you know, that's something that we should be doing because.
26:36
Speaker 2It's absolutely.
26:37
Speaker 1Good just to grind it out forever.
That's.
26:39
Speaker 2No, it's definitely not.
And you're not, you're not even delivering your best self when you're doing that, you know, you're not delivering your best work, you're not focusing.
And it's very true.
And I think finding, finding that network of people, I know a lot of times women, it's other women, but it doesn't always have to be.
26:55
And just finding those people that that'll support you and be there.
And, and, and sometimes you just want that person to be like, Oh yeah, I did that too.
I stumbled, I did that too.
And then after you get through like, all right, it's normal.
Everyone feels this way.
And then then some advice on this is how I handled this or this is how I handled that.
27:13
But having that group is, is really critical.
And sometimes I think even from me now knowing how to pay that forward at the time I was going through where I needed help, I couldn't ask for it and I didn't, I didn't ask for it, even though I shared, I wouldn't ask for the help.
27:31
I wouldn't take it.
But if it was given without asking, I'll be like, wow, that was great.
So I've learned now that when I see other people struggling through things asking, hey, is there anything I can do for you?
Let me know what I can do for you.
Or when you get off the phone, Hey, I'm here if you need anything, they're not going to ask you just do it.
27:51
What's the worst that's going to happen?
You leave a meal on someone's, you know where you write a note or you send them something.
What's the worst that's going to happen?
They throw it out.
They don't like that meal.
Who cares?
You know what I mean?
You they'll like some part of it.
You know, you'll get some of it right some of the time.
28:06
And that's something that I've learned and I kind of in the past, I didn't know what to do, but then having gone through it, I'm like, oh, I remember that person sent me like chicken noodle soup that day.
I didn't want it.
I didn't ask for it, but I I kind of needed it.
28:20
Speaker 1You know, that's a great point.
I I find myself because it's like, I feel like sometimes you're like, I don't know how the person would take it and I, I don't want to do the wrong thing.
But to your point, it's like, isn't it better just to do something And then yeah, like they can just ignore it or throw it away, but like.
28:36
Speaker 2It it matters, but they probably won't and it means something to them.
I mean, I've had so many things happen after this now, right?
And, and I just do it.
I just like it doesn't matter because you want to do something, but you always feel like it has to be the perfect thing.
But it really doesn't.
28:52
It doesn't.
And sometimes it could be a small little note or a phone call just checking in on someone.
And sometimes it's hard because because it's, it's not, you know, you're nervous to, to say the wrong thing or you know, you, you especially if you don't ever have that experience, if you've never had that experience, you're not sure what is the right thing to do.
29:10
But honestly, letting people know that you're thinking about them, you can't go wrong.
29:15
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, I love that.
And so and I guess the the other thing I would point out that I think it is very meaningful is a lot of times these things trickle down from the top.
So it's like if you are a leader and you are just I'm going to grind, I have the flu and I'm dying, but I'm going to be on this Zoom call looking terrible.
29:36
And it's like, then your team is going to feel like, well, then I have to do that.
I can't possibly step back when I'm sick because my leader doesn't do it or her leader doesn't do it.
His leader doesn't do it.
And it's like, I think it's, yeah.
And if COVID, it's like, it was so funny 'cause like, I feel like COVID kind of maybe taught us a few things that we had forgotten, like, oh, if you're sick, stay home.
29:58
Stay home.
I'll pass it around.
And I remember like, it was a badge of honor early in my career where it's like, oh, I have the flu, but I'm coming to the office.
Like, why?
Why did?
30:08
Speaker 2You just gave me.
30:08
Speaker 1A person turn around yeah, and give every and then productivity goes down for the month like it's just something.
So I love that you are, you know, like you were able to kind of like you said, be vulnerable as the leader.
And now your team probably feels like, wow, if I'm in a place.
30:24
Speaker 2Where I just need.
30:25
Speaker 1You know that's here.
30:27
Speaker 2And that's how you're going to keep people, right?
If you want to keep people, you have to lead with empathy.
You have to understand even something simple like this.
This is to me so simple.
And I try to always remember I don't always do it, but sometimes I work late hours and I'm catching up on emails.
30:42
Schedule them because your staff is going to read that at 10:00 at night and it's either going to keep their mind up on their work or they're going to feel the need to respond.
So I don't you can call, you can call.
The way I look at it is it's OK to go up like if you need leader, you can even call me anytime you want, but it's not OK to shoot that down.
31:03
And so I always try to say if if I'm sending something to someone who reports to me, I try to schedule it so it comes in the morning and not in in an off hour and not on the weekend because they're looking and saying, well, she's working on the weekend, so I need to be working on the weekend.
31:19
And I don't want that for my team.
I don't, I really don't.
If it's an emergency I'll call you but that sometimes I forget I will admit it, but I always try to schedule it.
31:28
Speaker 1And I've even forgotten and I will reply if I because I use the delay send all the time.
I accidentally send at 10:00.
31:36
Speaker 2I'll do a.
31:37
Speaker 1Reply and say I meant to send this tomorrow.
Please do not look at this tonight.
So then it takes that pressure off because then so I think we need to say that loud because there are a lot of people that do and I think, like you said, the going up I'll call my boss anytime and he would be fine with that.
31:53
But same like it is very when I.
31:56
Speaker 2Try to make and they can call me if they need me, that's fine.
Okay with that.
And I know they're not going to do it unless they really need me.
So yeah, I think that's that's not empathy and understanding each other and knowing that family time is important too.
32:10
Speaker 1Yes, I totally agree.
So one last thing.
I mean, it sounds like, you know, you've got it all together, right?
You've got it all figured out.
And I, yeah, we right, we, but in all seriousness, are there certain things that you're kind of in your career journey that you're still learning and still kind of spending time focusing on and, and would love to hear kind of, you know, what your development focus is for yourself.
32:37
Speaker 2Sure, there's well, I said in the beginning of this, I, I love to always be doing something new And, and when I look back at my career and my journey, I've never really replaced a role.
I've always either developed it or, or it didn't exist before I got here.
32:54
So, so I always say, you know, I've been constantly paving my own way, which is great because you get to kind of build things.
But in some ways it's also it's hard because you don't get to see it or to reflect and to see, OK, these are the expectations of this role.
33:10
You're kind of making your own expectations and hoping hopefully you're meeting the ones of those around you.
So that is challenging, but it's also, like I said, the beginning.
What I love, I like that it's different every day.
I don't want to be doing the same thing.
And I like to be challenged and I like to do things that I've never done before, like like this podcast.
33:30
Yes, it is your first podcast, right?
It is my first podcast.
Yes.
I've done speaking engagements classes, but never a podcast.
So this is fun and I do like that.
But that being said, it's not because I'm just so confident and everything comes easy.
33:47
It's something that I learned about myself very young, that I am a person who is afraid of a lot of things.
Like people say, oh, are you ever afraid?
I'm like, yeah, every day of my life, I wake up, I'm like, oh, what's going to happen today?
And I learned that if I allowed that to control what I did because it was innately who I was, I wouldn't do anything, you know?
34:09
So I'm like, OK, I have to understand that I know this about myself and I'm going to do it in spite of that.
And that means, you know that.
So when they say yes, that I think is something I'm always going to be learning because hopefully I'm always doing new things and it's easy to settle in and be like, OK, I got this.
34:27
I know it.
But it gets it gets boring and I don't, I don't like to be bored.
So for that reason, I'm always looking to see what's next in terms of my career.
I've been on this crazy journey with my wonderful company, but we're growing, like you said, at the speed of light.
34:43
And with all of that growth comes a lot of challenges.
And for me, the most recent is learning that the firm is expanding across the country and I'm starting to learn the difference in perception and personalities and languages.
35:03
Even though we're all speaking English, we all speak a different language.
And I'm really starting to understand that.
And now that I have, we have, I have Co workers and leaders across on the West Coast, Texas, Florida and Maine, and even the different levels of the firm, from your field employees to your middle management to your C-Suite, we all speak a different language.
35:30
And so I'm starting to learn like, oh, we need to read, read the room.
And so I can give any kind of advice.
I wish I learned this earlier in my career, is that really read the room.
Like understand their language, listen to how they speak, listen to how they, their, you know, their emotions and what they, you know, translate how they translate.
35:51
And then try to make sure that you are communicating the right space.
Because sometimes as marketers living in an engineering space, we are speaking like completely different languages.
And I'm trying to explain something and, and I'm like, I don't understand why they don't get this.
36:09
But our language is different.
And, and I think we've now just recently acquired an architect firm too, actually, and they speak a little bit, they have a little bit closer language to designers, you know, to the marketers than engineers do.
And so I'm even learning that difference, personality differences, like what I would that I'm born and raised, like we said in New York, I'm from Brooklyn, I am Italian.
36:35
So I'm animated.
And when I'm passionate about something, it can, it can translate to being upset to someone on the West Coast or someone in the in the Midwest.
So, and I'm learning that now that I realize that their perception is their reality.
So if they perceive I'm upset and it's really just me being who I am, that is, is I'm losing communication there, right?
36:58
And so I think that to gain that sense of communication and to learn and I won't be able to influence if that's the case, right?
So I have to read the room, know who I'm speaking to, understand their perception is their reality.
And if I can live in that space, I will be more influential in those conversations and then be able to get, you know, have more impact in what I'm doing.
37:21
So that's kind of where I where I am right now, navigating all these different conversations as we go across the country.
I love that.
37:29
Speaker 1Well, and as a no one believes me when I say this because I enjoy doing stuff like this or like hosting the user conference, but I've actually an introvert.
I'm like right on the cusp.
So I can, I can fake it, but I'm more of an introvert.
And it's funny because I think as introversion got a bit more, I feel like it was with Quiet, that book that came out and the Ted Talk, and all of a sudden people are like, oh, introverts can be leaders too.
37:53
But I think what you were describing is like, just how do we listen more?
And maybe like before we just come into a room and say all the things, like kind of take a minute.
And introverts tend to do that well.
And sometimes too much.
Sometimes we don't speak up as much as we shoulder as quickly as we.
38:10
Speaker 2Yeah, it's very.
38:11
Speaker 1Processed so, but I think that's great advice and something I'm I try to do because even every situation, it's like sometimes you come in with your, you know, like you're just waiting to talk versus listening.
And I'm trying to dial that like let me really listen to this other person.
38:28
I do that in my personal life too.
Like let me listen to their point of view and listen to what their experience is before I just decide that I know what I'm going to say.
And I I think that as leadership, we can listen.
38:40
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah.
And it's not always easy because you have your agenda, because you're, your perception is your reality, right?
And, and so you have to kind of meet them where they are and, and see how you can come together and really hear both sides.
Because honestly, like what we were talking about from the very beginning of our conversation, more perspectives on a situation you're going to have, you're going to get closer to the truth, right?
39:03
Because everyone has their own perception.
So really seeing that and knowing, knowing the people you're talking to, it's important.
39:12
Speaker 1Totally agree.
Well, Michelle, thank you.
I think that this has been such a great conversation, I'm pretty sure.
39:18
Speaker 2We could keep going.
We probably.
39:20
Speaker 1Could they like us to keep it below 30 minutes?
So I just want to say I truly appreciate you sharing your story and being so open.
It has been so fun and I want to thank all of our listeners to listening to Breaking Ground Women in AEC Leadership.
39:35
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